1. [disclaimer: macpythonista]

    (exp 2) Everything you've found is very high level or very low level.. What are you looking for more specifically? Maybe you haven't found it. What are some examples of middle-level applications on other platforms?

    (exp 3) You're not content with how Tkinter and WxWindows work on the Mac.. that's not really Python's fault. Yes, they both suck on OS X, but that's at the C/C++ library level. Both libraries (Tk and WxWindows) are improving, but who's to say when they'll be perfect. WxWindows seems to be improving at a faster rate than Tk, but I never plan on using Tk on the Mac and probably won't try WxWindows again for another 6-9 months. Though, with more effort than one should ever exert, you could compile the X11 versions and use it that way (which works as expected, if you expect it to act like X11 that is).

    (exp 4) You can change the keyboard layout if you want.. but have you ever tried using more than one model of win32 laptop in the same week? That's hell too.. It's going to be annoying nomatter what, because the keyboards are different.

    (exp 5) Yes, the operating systems are not forwards compatible.. software compiled against 10.3 features can not be used on 10.2 and so on. You can build 10.1 compatible software on a 10.3 machine, but most people don't want to because 10.2 and 10.3 are at least an order of magnitude better than 10.1 from a developer's perspective. For a Cocoa developer, 10.3 has some serious enhancements over 10.2 worth considering. The same thing holds true with say, Win98 vs. Win2k .. to a somewhat lesser extent since MS generally lets you redistribute new things to old operating systems (such as DirectX or GDI+, IIRC). Apple doesn't give you this flexibility, but it's a new platform and I understand that they'd like to shuttle people off old versions ASAP to correct their mistakes. They just don't have the support staff that MS does that allow them to develop and test against N operating system versions. Personally it doesn't bother me, because I write (mac specific) software primarily for friends, coworkers, and myself.. who are all pretty much up to date (or if not, too bad, if they want the software they can upgrade).
      posted by Bob Ippolito at 01:26:23 PM on December 16, 2003  
  2. """Everything you've found is very high level or very low level.. What are you looking for more specifically? Maybe you haven't found it. What are some examples of middle-level applications on other platforms?"""

    Hmm, I guess this is mostly caused by the fact that there are fewer programs for the Mac than for Windows. Because of the sheer number of programs available for Windows, you're more likely to find an app that is at the level you like... high, low or somewhere in between. Examples could be anything... newsreaders, mail clients, etc. I think that programs for the Mac, because of its nature, tend to be grouped at the two extremes (either very high level or very low level), while Windows programs are more evenly distributed along that scale. But that's just my impression.

    """You're not content with how Tkinter and WxWindows work on the Mac.. that's not really Python's fault."""

    Well, I wasn't looking to blame anyone or anything, I just made the observation that using these GUIs doesn't work as well on the Mac as it does on Windows. This is a serious obstacle for Python programming on the Mac, at least in my case.

    """You can change the keyboard layout if you want.. but have you ever tried using more than one model of win32 laptop in the same week? That's hell too.. It's going to be annoying nomatter what, because the keyboards are different. """

    Agreed, but I try to minimize the number of keyboards if at all possible. I have worked with different keyboards before, but usually the differences involved keys that are used less often, like the backslash. I wasn't aware the keyboard layout could be changed, I will keep that in mind for when I return to the Mac (which I probably will, eventually).

    All my "criticism" doesn't mean that the Mac isn't a good computer or programming platform. If I had started out with a Mac, long ago, I would probably have loathed Windows now, and I would be the first to point out the countless problems, bugs, ill-designed or missing features, etc. I stay on Windows because I have to (for my work) and because I'm used to it, not because I think it's superior to OS X.
      posted by Hans at 02:35:24 PM on December 16, 2003  
  3. ""I stay on Windows because I have to (for my work) and because I'm used to it, not because I think it's superior to OS X.""

    That's a good way to put it Hans. However for me the Python development that I do is almost always non-UI but I hear what you're saying. I work on OS X, Windows 2000 / 2003 and Linux every week and the keyboard layouts play tricks on my mind. I must say that the longer I have my 12" Powerbook the more I favour the layout over anything else.
    The next big work project(about a year) will be all based on Java and so most of my dev time will be on my pb ;-)

      posted by Justin at 02:40:15 PM on December 20, 2003